Politically Incorrect
15 janvier 2002/January 15th, 2001
Veuillez noter que cette entrevue est disponible en anglais seulement. Il n'est pas dans mon intention de la traduire, vu la longueur.
Please note that it not not my wish to translate this article in French, because of its lenght.
Dean Cain
Genevieve Wood
Mark Walberg
Bill Brochtrup
Bill: Good evening. Welcome to "Politically Incorrect." Let me introduce you to our panel over here. Mr. Mark Walberg -- he hosts my guilty pleasure reality show, "Temptation Island," which is on Fox. I think I can say that. Thursdays at 9:00. I'll promote it, since they're not.
Mark: Thank you.
[ Light laughter ]
Bill: Bill Brochtrup, you're, of course, on ABC's big hit show "NYPD Blue," ABC, Tuesdays at 9:00. Thank you for being here. Genevieve Wood, been with us many times. The political commentator and the spokeswoman for the Family Research Council. And Dean Cain, who we all remember as Superman, and now he is the host of "Ripley's Believe It or Not" Wednesdays at 8:00 on another network, TBS. That's that network. Give a hand to this panel.
[ Applause ]
And --
[ Cheers and applause ]
Wow. Yeah? The audience approves! [ Light laughter ]
No one is getting voted off the panel. And I do want to talk about entertainment and what we need to do to keep ourselves entertained. 'Cause Lord knows the president can't choke on snack food every day.
[ Laughter ]
And apparently some people think we need a gay network. I'm sure you saw this over the weekend. MTV and Showtime now are getting together -- I guess they are together in that company -- to produce a gay -- an all-gay network. And I thought to myself, "Good. Maybe then we can have a straight one after that." [ Laughter ] Because, I mean, how much gayer can TV get? [ Applause ] I mean, my God. Did anybody see "Sex and the City" last night?
Bill Brochtrup: I didn't see it last night.
Bill: It was -- I mean, it's a gay show to begin with.
Mark: Well, it's a girly show.
Bill: Well, it's a show written by gay men, and the four women are really gay men. And that's why they're so slutty, 'cause they act like gay -- It's true. They act -- they have sex with anyone, anytime, any place, just like lots of gay men do. I'm not criticizing that. I wish I could be one of them. [ Laughter ] But, really, do we need a gay network? Do we need --
Mark: What is a gay network? That's where I really have the rub on this is that, you know -- Program --
[ Laughter ]
Pardon the pun. Hey -- Don't judge where I get my rubs, but thank you. You know, what do they mean by a gay network? Is it gonna be like instructional videos on how to be gay, or is it gonna be a gay sensibility of entertainment? And then how do we label it as a gay sensibility? I might enjoy some of that, and I'm not gay.
Genevieve: It's a network that's gonna be --
Bill: Whatever you say, man. [ Laughter ] Hey, we don't judge here.
Genevieve: Bill, let me jump in with a family perspective here and tell you why I'm opposed to it. The same reason I'd be opposed to the "Playboy" Channel or people going out and renting a bunch of pornographic -- It's a network based on sex. I mean, it's a network that's basically saying, "We need a network about gay people," and we're only having it 'cause it's a network about people who wanna have gay sex.
Mark: Who said that it is? What I'm saying is, is this gay network a sensibility that's the stereotypical gay sensibility of entertainment?
Genevieve: Yeah, they use examples. They use examples like "Queer as Folk" and some others. But the point being is why do we need that? Why do we need a network when they're already represented on regular channels?
Bill Brochtrup: It's not a question of whether we need it. It's a question of the marketplace kind of doing what it does best, which is answering a need that has not been met. There's a group of people who feel they can make money off of this.
Bill: "Has not been met"?
Genevieve: I don't think so.
Bill Brochtrup: Why do you think there's the Black Entertainment Network or the cooking channel, the game show channel, the Lifetime entertainment channel for women?
Dean: The cooking channel isn't the gay network?
Genevieve: Hold on. There are a lot more black people in this country. There are a lot more women people in this country. Showtime and MTV are coming together for basically what may be 2% -- maybe 2% -- of the population.
Bill: You said "coming together." [ Laughter ]
Mark: But here's what I don't understand --
Bill Brochtrup: They don't do it out of charity. They're doing it 'cause they think they can make money off of it.
Mark: Why does it have to be -- Why does it have to be how many people in America? Look, you've got the Outdoor Life channel, which is hunting pheasant on a reserve, right?
Genevieve: Right. [ Laughter ]
Mark: I don't care.
[ Applause ]
Genevieve: Point being -- Point being it's a network that basically they're trying to place to -- I think there's a little bit of a political agenda behind what they would say is a lucrative audience. Because there's a lot of other groups out there that don't have their own channel.
Bill Brochtrup: Which groups?
Mark: But they could have one if they want.
Genevieve: How about MTV and Showtime -- not that they would ever -- but putting together a Christian channel or a Catholic channel?
Bill Brochtrup: Have you ever seen the PAX network?
Mark: Hello! What's that -- the one that never goes off, the Trinity one? It's on all the time.
Genevieve: No, no, no. Those are -- no, no, no.
Mark: You've got a block of maybe ten channels that are entirely Christian all the time. There's things you can buy that are Christian.
Genevieve: Why doesn't Viacom or somebody get behind it? The truth is, there is -- just be honest about it is all I want them to be. Say, "Look -- Yeah, we think we're gonna make some money. But let's be honest here -- we have a little bit of a political agenda." But when they --
[ Talking over each other ]
No, the guy saying this said they believe this was an unserved audience. That they weren't people who were represented, gays as a whole, anywhere else. And that's not true. Look at "NYPD Blue."
Dean: There's one simple --
Mark: There's a phrase I have a problem with altogether.
Dean: There's one simple reason there should be able to be a gay network -- is that it's protected by the First Amendment. That's it. Period.
[ Applause ]
That's the reason -- That's the reason there is -- And if people watch it, it will stay on the air. If they don't watch it, it won't stay on the air.
Genevieve: I'm not saying ban it. I'm not saying ban it. I'm just saying are we a better society because we have a network based on sex? That's the only point.
Bill: I agree with you that we don't need to balkanize our country further. I really do. But I don't think it's based on sex. It's based on -- It's not gay porn they're showing here, I hope.
Genevieve: Well, we don't know.
Mark: Well, on Showtime, you get that.
Genevieve: Because it's gonna be a pay-per channel. It's not gonna be something that you get with basic cable probably.
Bill: The gay sensibility is already pervasive in this country. Because it is so feminized. This country is so overly feminized to begin --
Bill Brochtrup: So maybe they'll start a masculine, manly channel or something.
Mark: Outdoor Life!
Bill: ESPN, yes. We have that.
Bill Brochtrup: So what are you talking about, you know? It's the balkanization, yeah, but there -- All groups are being served. And I don't know what the problem is. You act like there's a big conspiracy somewhere where all these people behind the curtain are saying, "Here's what we should do. Let's help the gay agenda."
Genevieve: No, I do think there is a lot of that at Viacom and MTV. But beside the point -- Look, you've gotta decide, to a certain extent, do we wanna have a network -- What if we have a network of people who decide, "Hey, I like pedophilia, and I'm going to have a network based on that. You don't have to pay for it, but we're gonna have it."
Mark: I just hate that you're putting pedophilia and homosexuality in the same sort of --
Genevieve: No, I'm not. But you're basing -- no, I'm saying you're basing it on behavior.
Bill: It's called the priesthood. [ Laughter ] But --
Genevieve: That just --
Mark: He's only joking.
Bill: I'm not joking. Did you see the news today?
Mark: I know. I'm just making it nice for her, 'cause she's gonna hit ya. [ Laughter ]
Genevieve: I appreciate it.
Bill: Well, okay --
Mark: I think that, ultimately, that there are all of those channels exist, and it's only about money. And if they think that putting one and labeling it the "gay channel" -- which, by the way, if I were part of the homosexual community, I would take a little offense that they're saying gay sensibility from -- is a gay channel. Look, if it's show tunes and Broadway, and that's supposed to be gay, that's a step backwards --
Genevieve: No. Well --
Bill: There is a kind of hypocrisy that goes on. Because it does suggest that they need their own channel.
Mark: Right.
Bill: And the message always seems to be, you know, when the gays are mad, it's, "Treat us as everybody else." But apparently we're so different we want our own channel. Isn't there a bit of a --
Bill Brochtrup: Do you feel that way about the Black Entertainment Television?
Bill: I'm gonna be on there soon. So, you know, I have to keep them on my side. [ Laughter ]
Bill Brochtrup: Because I --
Bill: That's my big offer right now. No --
Bill Brochtrup: Because I don't feel that -- The balkanization I don't think necessarily means that it doesn't exist in the mainstream, as well. I think that it's a place where people can go if they want to. And like you said, if it doesn't do well, if the shows are crap, if they just show Judy Garland 24 hours a day, people aren't gonna tune in. [ Light laughter ]
Dean: That might do all right, actually. Some of the early work.
Bill Brochtrup: Some of those -- I don't think having B.E.T. stops people from watching "Soul Food" or watching "The Hughleys."
Bill: But it stops them from watching UPN. [ Light laughter ] Because, you know, they have to make a choice. That's what I thought you meant when you said the Black Entertainment network. But -- yeah. But, I mean, you don't think there's a difference there or -- on a broader scale, don't you think that this country is worse for the wear? Because, you know, in the old days, people would watch as a family. There was only three channels. And so people would sort of come together -- now I said it -- [ Light laughter ]
To enjoy something. And now it seems like we're all in our own separate room watching our own separate channel. And I don't think that's good, especially since -- weren't we supposed to change and come together a few months ago?
Mark: Yeah. You know what? But I agree with you.
Genevieve: Especially when you wanna say it's all the same.
Mark: It's happening in my household, and it's not a good thing. I find that, you know, my wife goes in to watch her show in the bedroom, and I'm watching football, and the kids are in their rooms. And it would be great if television was the family time. But in my family, I use time other than television time to do what you're talking about.You know, there's meal time. There's other time. There's prayer time. There's time in my family when we do family stuff together.
Genevieve: But it builds stereotypes for those who base their decisions on looking at this group or this group or this group. And the other thing is, look, I mean, there's a lot of groups out there, whether you're Hispanic or you're black, that you could say aren't on ainstream television, if you will, on a regular basis. I mean, there are not that many Hispanic characters in prime-time TV.
Bill: Oh, come on.
Genevieve: Compared to population in this country.
Bill: You know what? Let's get real. All minorities are overrepresented. Why? Because white people are dull.
[ Laughter ]
[ Applause ]
Genevieve: Well, I agree with you on that.
Bill: It's true.
Genevieve: I agree. But most gay people are white. The point being --
Bill: For the same reason that a party of only white people would suck -- It's supposed to be entertaining. Of course they're gonna have gays and blacks and --
Genevieve: I'm trying to bring it back to the point which is the folks putting this together said they were doing it because they were unserved. As a community, they were unrepresented. And that's not true.
Bill Brochtrup: Do you feel there's an overage of gay characters on TV?
Genevieve: Well, I think they're -- Well, I'm just saying there's a lot more of them, percentage, based on the population than there are of Hispanics or blacks.
Bill: Excuse me, girlfriend. I gotta take a break.
Mark: You go.
[ Applause ]
Bill: Well, as you, I'm sure, have all heard yesterday, President Bush choked on a pretzel and passed out.
[ Laughter ]
One embarrassing moment -- I mean, other than passing out from a pretzel -- when he regained consciousness, the president said, "How did I get here?" And an aide said, "You can thank the Supreme Court." [ Laughter ]
Bill: Okay. We were talking about entertainment. Television, what we have to do. Apparently, to find a vein these days to get a little excited -- Did you see "The Chamber" thing last night? Oh, my God. This is --
[ Audience member clapping ]
Please don't applaud.
Mark: One person.
Bill: Yeah, that must be the producer. This is the end of the empire, isn't it? If you have -- it's people who are answering questions, just like on a game show, while they're being tortured. [ Light laughter ] I think it's interesting that we weren't allowed to torture the Al Qaeda operatives we have. But these people on a game show -- that's okay. We can hit them with water hoses. There's like heat, extreme heat.
Mark: 10 degrees below zero.
Bill: It's unbelievable, and, you know, I thought when 9/11 happened, everybody said, "Oh, reality shows are over. We have sobered up. Thank God, this country, the people --"
Genevieve: And they're back and worse. They're back and worse.
Bill: So what does that say about us and our changing ways?
Dean: I don't know that it says anything about us. I mean, I -- My company creates television, and we created "Ripley's Believe It or Not," which is unbelievable. And we could put "The Chamber" on our show, it's so unbelievable. [ Light laughter ] You know, I think if people are gonna -- again, it goes back to if people are gonna tune in and watch it, okay, to a point. Now, I have a 19-month-old son. He -- I would not have him watch that. But I will choose what types of things he sees on television and what types of things he won't see. That's something that I will choose for him not to see. If people want to make that show, again, I say, God bless 'em. I don't want to watch it, but --
Bill: Yeah, but doesn't it say that we, as a civilization, are circling the drain here? [ Light laughter ] I mean, you know, when they had the coliseum in -- you look at it. Oh, my God! They had dwarves fighting women, and you know. People were decadent.
Genevieve: Yeah.
Bill: But, I mean, come on. This is really just as bad. This is cruel and exploitative to a degree that I --
Genevieve: Well, thing is, Bill, I mean, I appreciate that Dean doesn't want his family watching. That's great. And you guys might not, either. But the truth is it still impacts the culture. I mean, the fact is, even if you don't want your kids to watch it, the kids next door might be watching it. And then we wonder why kids act like they do in school, why they take it to the next step after watching some of these shows. And I think, you know, it's because they watch it at 8:00 or 9:00. And let's not kid ourselves. It doesn't all come on after midnight. It comes on at 8:00 or 9:00 at night, and that's what they go to bed thinking about. I mean, I just don't think that's the kind of stuff we want to put in our kids' minds.
Mark: Well, yes, however --
[ Applause ]
You're absolutely right. The show you're talking about, "The Chamber," comes on at 9:00. And in my house -- look, I host a show that -- I'm just waiting -- Come on. Bring it on. [ Laughter ]
Bill: Oh, your show is evil.
Mark: But my show is --
Bill: I never miss it, but it is evil. [ Light laughter ]
Mark: And I'll tell you something about --
Bill: And I'll tell you why it's evil.
Mark: You'll tell me why it's evil?
Bill: You want to know?
Mark: Sure.
Bill: You've seen "Temptation Island," right?
Dean: Yes.
Bill: Okay. [ One person applauds ] You take people who are --
Mark: Thank you, ma'am.
Bill: You take people who are in a relationship for three or four years --
Mark: Or ten months, or whatever.
Bill: No. It's always three or four years.
Mark: Not always, Bill. But some of them are a long time.
Bill: They have been in a relationship for a while.
Mark: Good.
Bill: And then you put them on an island with other single people. Okay, anyone in a relationship that long is desperate to have sex with anything. [ Laughter ] You could put hair on a doughnut and start to go for it. [ Laughter ]
Mark: You hit it right on the head.
Bill: So, I mean, they do not --
Genevieve: See what this has done to Bill? [ Talking over another ]
Mark: If you put Bill in a room all by himself without TV, it still would go that way. You know, you're absolutely right, Bill. You're absolutely right. Except that these people have something, which is their relationship, that they willingly bring and frivolously put it in harm's way.
Bill Brochtrup: I think it speaks about the sort of cult of celebrity that we have in the world that people are willing to do anything to become famous.
Mark: If they think that will make them famous.
Bill: That's true.
Dean: I agree with that 100%.
Bill Brochtrup: People used to become famous because they were excellent singers or musicians or writers or painters or whatever it is that they do.
Bill Brochtrup: Now people are -- And they would be on the gay network.
Mark: Right.
Bill Brochtrup: Now people are famous because they're on TV, which is a total separate thing.
Genevieve: They do something crazy to the point --I mean, look at our kids who do something that have killed other kids at schools, and then we find out because they knew it was going to be they'd be famous stars on the news that night. And we glorify it. And sometimes these shows -- I'm not saying yours, too -- but sometimes these shows step over the line. That's what they put out there. And then we wonder why society, the culture goes away.
Bill: And the sad thing is that people don't get famous. They think they're going to get famous.
Mark: And I said this on my show to the contestants. I said, "Look, why are you here?" And they started to say to me, "We're here because we have problems with our relationship." I said, "Look, I know that's probably 10% of it. But the reason you're here is because" --
Bill Brochtrup: 10%?
Mark: Look, I gave them the benefit of the doubt. I said, "The reason you're here is because you're hoping that a deal's gonna come on the other end of this."
Bill: Right.
Mark: And, you know, we've seen all of these shows, and I can't tell you any of the contestants who've gone on to success unless --
Bill Brochtrup: I don't know. We had a person from "The Real World" -- who was on "The Real World" who was a P.A. on our show. He wants to be a writer. But he told me all the rest of them want to be actors. They've all moved out here trying to get agents. And he talked about the show -- this is a reality show -- talked about it like saying like, "Well, in the 'B' story line, I would" -- and I said, "You don't have 'B' story lines in real life!"
Bill: They do in real life. Right.
Bill Brochtrup: I think that's true. I think it's that cult of celebrity that is the problem and not so much what we're doing --
Bill: Anonymity is the greatest -- that is to be avoided above everything else.
Mark: Yeah.
Bill: You are born into this horrible state of being anonymous.
Mark: Right. God forbid.
Bill: And that's why if you have a horrible internal family problem that's very embarrassing, for God's sakes, call Jerry Springer and reveal it on the air.
Mark: Of course. [ Laughter ]
Bill: Don't handle this in your living room.
Mark: But you know, we talk about these game shows and how evil they are. And the point is well taken, and I can't argue that.
Bill: Yours is evil.
Mark: No -- [ Light laughter ] You know what? I'll tell you --
Bill: I love it, but it's evil.
Mark: As evil as mine is, to me it's far more palatable than some of the stuff we're talking about.
Bill: I watch it.
Mark: But let me tell you why I think so. I think so for a couple reasons. One, you have to look at the effect it has on the people who go on the show, which are four couples, eight people and then the singles. Then you've got to look at the effect it has on the culture and society. I truly believe -- and I know you guys are going to give me a whole bag of hurt on this -- but I really think that most of the people who watch the show and see these couples doing this realize that these couples are taking something very precious for ranted and putting it in harm's way. And as they watch them make --
Bill: So you're doing a service.
Mark: No, no. No, no! [ Laughter ] No.
Bill: Wow.
[ Applause ]
Mark: Wait a minute. Wait a minute.
Bill: Ladies and gentlemen, ground hero. [ Laughter ]
Mark: I'm healing America one couple at a time.
Bill: You are.
Genevieve: I know a lot of politicians that would like to hire you as their spin --
Mark: Let me just finish the point.I think that anybody who knows the value of their relationship, as some of us do, would never put it in the harm's way that they do.
Bill: Right.
Mark: These people frivolously take something they own, which is the relationship they do, and they throw it on the spit, right? And we all see that.And I hope that most of the people viewing it, as the people who come up to me and talk about it say, I would never do that.
Bill: I've seen some spit on your contestants, by the way. [ Light laughter ] But we have to take a break.
Mark: Watch Thursday. There'll be more.
Bill: We'll be right back.
[ Applause ]
Bill: Okay. Let's -- to change courses a little bit, since bad parents and rotten kids have been in the news so much lately, I wanted to bring this up. Because I've been following this story from Australia about this woman who had in vitro fertilization and then -- You know, when you do that, sometimes you get more eggs -- more babies than you want.
Bill Brochtrup: Often.
Bill: Often. So I found it had happened here in America, too. They can then, basically, abort one of them, 'cause they said, "Hey, this is more baby than I ordered." [ Light laughter ] "You know, I just wanted a baby. I couldn't have one. I had them put the turkey baster in me. And now it looks like I'm going to have three or two or something. But I really just wanted one. So, eenie, meenie, minie, moe, three-card Monte, good-bye." [ Light laughter ]
And, of course, the anti, you know, abortion people think this is terrible. But the truth is that, you know, aren't you just helping the one survive better than what would be multiple tragedy?
Dean: That's a really tough area, 'cause it gets into freedom of choice. I believe in a woman's right to choose, absolutely. I think a woman should absolutely have the right to choose whether she wants to carry a child to term or not. But when you get into a situation like that, I think -- You know, if you get yourself pregnant on purpose and then you have maybe two or three eggs that are fertilized, and now you have a chance to have, you know, triplets or three different kids, I think -- unless it's a medical problem for you, I think you should carry the child to term.
[ Scattered applause ]
Bill: But you didn't want three.
Bill Brochtrup: Should is different than a legal situation. I mean, "should" is a different thing. This is kind of a "Sophie's Choice." And there's no right -- this is impossible to figure out. But there's a difference between a moral standpoint about that and what would be good -- and I think it would be pretty scarring to that woman, you know, emotionally and everything -- and a legal situation.
Mark: I'm sure this is going to be completely unpopular, and I'm just opening myself up again. But I sort of draw the line here.
I'm pro-choice but with a caveat of health reasons. I have to acknowledge -- having seen the birth of my children, I have to acknowledge that when the embryo becomes fertilized that life has begun.
[ Scattered applause ]
Yes. But I still have to hold the right to choice because, oftentimes, I think the abortion is the right thing to do. I think, sometimes, if the baby or the mother -- you know, if the baby is horribly -- if there's a defect or if the mother's at risk, then that's why --
Bill: And we're talking about a stage --
Mark: Right.
Bill: -- where they're just --
Mark: So, therefore, taking it into this thing --
Bill: -- Until we take the eggs out of the freezer. Come on.
Mark: I say, look, if you're going to take a fertility drug, okay -- We know that as soon as you start taking fertility drugs, you have a higher risk for a multiple pregnancy. And if the doctor says to you at that point, "Look, I've looked at you. You've got five fetuses now that are fertilized. And looking at them, none of them will survive unless you select the healthiest one and let that go." I got no ethical problem with that. But in the case of the Australian woman, where she's got maybe two or three in there, and she goes, "I'm not prepared for triplets," well, I would have liked to have seen her sign the release before the fertility drug. And say, "Look, if we get triplets, you've got to have triplets."
Bill: I've got to abort this segment. We will be right back.
[ Applause ]
Bill: All right. Dean Cain, "Ripley's Believe It or Not." Mark Walberg, "Temptation Island." Billy, you've got your "NYPD Blue." TV is good when it's dirty, isn't it? [ Laughter ]
[ Cheers and applause ]
|
